ADHD+THC

[Mom of hopeful pilot]

My son was deferred for 1st class because of ADHD meds. Had to get exam from HIMS psychologist which he passed but also had to take a drug test after. He was not aware they would test for THC and tested positive. Got certified letter wanting detailed info of his usage and another test within 48hrs. He possibly tested positive again but explained that in both instances he used to combat Covid symptoms. Is there any chance he will be approved or is this an automatic denial if he tested positive again? Also, seems really wrong that he would never have been tested for this were it not for the ADHD meds he took years ago that required him to get the psych testing.

 

[flyingron]

He can't be certified if he is a marijuana user (no matter what excuse he invents). He can try again in two years. He will have to repeat the neuropsych. He was required to have disclosed that use on his application, so if they let him get this far either he lied or his AME is incompetent.

 

[Half Fast]

Also, seems really wrong that he would never have been tested for this were it not for the ADHD meds he took years ago that required him to get the psych testing.

Let me get this straight: you're worried about it being wrong that he was tested, not that he might fly aircraft while using marijuana? You'd be okay if he were using pot as long as he didn't get caught?

Ma'am, unless I really misunderstand your viewpoint, there's something so twisted in your reasoning that I have trouble fathoming it.

....but explained that in both instances he used to combat Covid symptoms.

There's no such thing as explaining away marijuana use (and that's a very flimsy excuse). The drug is against federal law, and he's seeking a medical from the Federal Aviation Administration. He was also required to report it on his application and he signed a statement attesting to the truth of that document. Lying on a federal form is itself a felony. Did he omit it? Seems pretty doubtful that the AME would have submitted the form if it was included.

Your son has exhibited very poor judgment and good judgment is essential for a pilot.

 

[Matthew]

I like to look on the positive side of things: someone just saved wheelbarrows full of money on flight training.

 

[Palmpilot]

He can't be certified if he is a marijuana user (no matter what excuse he invents). He can try again in two years. He will have to repeat the neuropsych. He was required to have disclosed that use on his application, so if they let him get this far either he lied or his AME is incompetent.

The NIH doesn't seem to think that the potential benefits for Covid-19 treatment are "invented."

Therapeutic Effects of Cannabinoids and Their Applications in COVID-19 Treatment

Cannabis sativa is one of the first medicinal plants used by humans. Its medical use remains controversial because it is a psychotropic drug whose use has been banned. Recently, however, some countries have approved its use, including for recreational ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Katamarino]

Covid symptoms treated with marijuana. Of course.

People try to treat it with horse dewormer, so why not?

 

[Al1606]

My son was deferred for 1st class because of ADHD meds. Had to get exam from HIMS psychologist which he passed but also had to take a drug test after. He was not aware they would test for THC and tested positive. Got certified letter wanting detailed info of his usage and another test within 48hrs. He possibly tested positive again but explained that in both instances he used to combat Covid symptoms. Is there any chance he will be approved or is this an automatic denial if he tested positive again? Also, seems really wrong that he would never have been tested for this were it not for the ADHD meds he took years ago that required him to get the psych testing.

I might be able to give you some guidances. PM your number.

 

[Matthew]

There’s some talk in the news recently about reclassifying marijuana at the Federal level. I haven’t paid much attention to the details. Would that reclassification cause any change with FAA medicals?

 

[Half Fast]

There’s some talk in the news recently about reclassifying marijuana at the Federal level. I haven’t paid much attention to the details. Would that reclassification cause any change with FAA medicals?

Doubtful. Many legal drugs are on the “NO” list for pilots. Legality isn’t the only issue with pot.

 

[Zeldman]

Also, seems really wrong that he would never have been tested for this were it not for the ADHD meds he took years ago that required him to get the psych testing

If your son desires to be a professional pilot, He will have to do a pre-employment drug test for every company, as well as possible random testing throughout his career. I was randomed a number of times. Show up for a flight, get the notice to go to the testing center, pee in the cup and go back the the airport.

Time to make a choice.

A. be a pilot.
B. Use THC.

Can't do both.

There’s some talk in the news recently about reclassifying marijuana at the Federal level. I haven’t paid much attention to the details. Would that reclassification cause any change with FAA medicals?

Doubtfully.

I reckon marijuana will just be lumped into the basket of meds that pilots can't take while holder of a valid medical.

Have you ever....

 

[bbchien]

Mom, I hate to rain but....

....he needs to be on a two year negative random pee plan, never miss and never be positive. That is AT LEAST abuse (being positive going to a psych provider! What was he thinking?

He needs to log an attend NA or AA.... nobody thinks he can sustain remission withourt continous peer support. I'll bet he doesn't think much of that!!!

He either has no judgement or the weed gives him absebce of judgemet, neither is certifiable.
I am so sorry for you.

 

[Racerx]

Your son just got a dose of what it's like being an adult and having to suffer the consequences of his actions.

Listen to the good doc above. All of it. If he really wants to fly.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

My son was deferred for 1st class because of ADHD meds. Had to get exam from HIMS psychologist which he passed but also had to take a drug test after. He was not aware they would test for THC and tested positive. Got certified letter wanting detailed info of his usage and another test within 48hrs. He possibly tested positive again but explained that in both instances he used to combat Covid symptoms. Is there any chance he will be approved or is this an automatic denial if he tested positive again? Also, seems really wrong that he would never have been tested for this were it not for the ADHD meds he took years ago that required him to get the psych testing.

Post #15 above is what your son needs to do. That advice is coming from a doctor who helps with problematic FAA medical certification issues. Contact him or a similarly well respected HIMS physician and follow their process.

It will be costly and time consuming, but if there is a will, it can be done…a side benefit is that it will be telling of the seriousness of desire and focus to accomplish the goal.

 

[murphey]

There’s some talk in the news recently about reclassifying marijuana at the Federal level. I haven’t paid much attention to the details. Would that reclassification cause any change with FAA medicals?

No.

 

[RadialGal]

I'd advise another career path....It will be one heck of an uphill battle and even then one heck of a MAYBE.

 

[Lndwarrior]

Geez, by some of the replies on here you'd think the kid was on heroine... and they seem to think it's on the same level.

Clearly some people have led some kind of perfect life and feel the need to lord it over others. Or at least profess that they have... me thinks those ones have even darker secrets that cause them to over-compensate.

 

[Rockymountain]

The hazards of mairjuana use, especially in the young are being explored, and the findings are not good. There is big money in big marijuana and they are infusing millions into trying to convince society that this all natural (genetically enhanced, chemically concentrated, extremely complex herbal compound) is safe, effective and cures all ailments. And at the same time trying to suppress studies and knowledge to the contrary. Of course they have their eyes on the recreational usage market which is where the money is. But our kids are being duped by the same BS. Like any chemical, it has benefit in some applications, but everything that works has side effects. Even too much water can kill you. The paper Cited above uses a lot of big shiny scientific words, but is basically an essay on metabolic pathways at the experimental level, with very few significant clinical studies Outside of seizure suppression of merit. Also published in a journal that I have never heard of. This was not the New England Journal of Medicine or British Medical Journal for sure. Sorry to hear about the OP’s dilemma, but the best long term result is to get some real medical help, and not go down the path of mind altering substances. (As I type next to my large cup of coffee ;-))

 

[flyingron]

Geez, by some of the replies on here you'd think the kid was on heroine... and they seem to think it's on the same level.

]

It is the view held by the FAA. It matters not what "we" think here. He used a prohibited substance and he continued to use it while doing his neuropsych examination when he was told that not only were psychoactive drugs PROHIBITED but that he would be tested for them. He also lied on his application. None of this bodes well for a career in aviation.

And yes, this is serious. My fire company was first due on the worst US passenger train disaster attributed to the crew being under the influence of cannabis.

 

[Llewtrah381]

There’s some talk in the news recently about reclassifying marijuana at the Federal level. I haven’t paid much attention to the details. Would that reclassification cause any change with FAA medicals?

The talk is of moving it from Schedule I, which are drugs with “no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse” such as LSD, heroin, and MDMA, to Schedule III, which are “drugs with a moderate to low potential for physical and psychological dependence” such as Tylenol with Codeine. Schedule I through V drugs are controlled by the DEA and require a DEA license to prescribe, unlike blood pressure and diabetes meds and antibiotics, as quick examples. So, even rescheduling it to III still requires a prescription by a DEA-licensed provider to be legal, but it does free up more opportunities for legitimate clinical research.

 

[Matthew]

The talk is of moving it from Schedule I, which are drugs with “no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse” such as LSD, heroin, and MDMA, to Schedule III, which are “drugs with a moderate to low potential for physical and psychological dependence” such as Tylenol with Codeine. Schedule I through V drugs are controlled by the DEA and require a DEA license to prescribe, unlike blood pressure and diabetes meds and antibiotics, as quick examples. So, even rescheduling it to III still requires a prescription by a DEA-licensed provider to be legal, but it does free up more opportunities for legitimate clinical research.

Thanks.

And I know my initial comment seemed pretty harsh, but it’s a reality. I’m a parent that wanted my own kids to have great careers and to do what they wanted. But I came to realize that they will make their own decisions and find their own way. Sometimes they take surprising paths. In this case: there’s almost always a way through. But it’s long, expensive, and there’s no guarantee there won’t be yet one more hurdle at the end that just can’t be overcome. And this is just to get the medical. The kid has lots of time ahead of him to quit the drugs, go to school, and find a way to succeed. This can all be done in parallel with getting the medical.

I do wish you well.

 

[flyingron]

The talk is of moving it from Schedule I, which are drugs with “no currently accepted medical use and a high potential for abuse” such as LSD, heroin, and MDMA, to Schedule III, which are “drugs with a moderate to low potential for physical and psychological dependence” such as Tylenol with Codeine. Schedule I through V drugs are controlled by the DEA and require a DEA license to prescribe, unlike blood pressure and diabetes meds and antibiotics, as quick examples. So, even rescheduling it to III still requires a prescription by a DEA-licensed provider to be legal, but it does free up more opportunities for legitimate clinical research.

And doesn't make it any more acceptable to use (with or without a prescription) while flying.

 

[StraightnLevel]

My son was deferred for 1st class because of ADHD meds.

He was not aware they would test for THC and tested positive.

He needs to re-think his life goals. Seriously.

If he's basing his drug use decision on whether or not he expects to be tested, then he does not have the judgement to be a pilot in command of any airplane, much less one with 100+ people whose lives are entrusted to him at 450kts/FL380.

 

[Mom of hopeful pilot]

He was not aware that he would be tested for anything besides ADHD meds after the psych testing. Had he known that, I am certain he would not have taken anything at all. In addition, I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening. As long as there is enough time between the effects of both to be worn off prior to flying. He doesn't plan to fly while impaired. Also his original application was submitted last year prior to the drug usage. Appreciate the feedback from those who were honestly trying to help.

 

[Mom of hopeful pilot]

Geez, by some of the replies on here you'd think the kid was on heroine... and they seem to think it's on the same level.

Clearly some people have led some kind of perfect life and feel the need to lord it over others. Or at least profess that they have... me thinks those ones have even darker secrets that cause them to over-compensate.

Thank you.

 

[Mom of hopeful pilot]

Thanks.

And I know my initial comment seemed pretty harsh, but it’s a reality. I’m a parent that wanted my own kids to have great careers and to do what they wanted. But I came to realize that they will make their own decisions and find their own way. Sometimes they take surprising paths. In this case: there’s almost always a way through. But it’s long, expensive, and there’s no guarantee there won’t be yet one more hurdle at the end that just can’t be overcome. And this is just to get the medical. The kid has lots of time ahead of him to quit the drugs, go to school, and find a way to succeed. This can all be done in parallel with getting the medical.

I do wish you well.

Thank you

 

[Half Fast]

I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening.

It simply doesn’t matter how you personally see it. It only matters how the FAA sees it.

They see it as abuse of an illegal substance by someone who wants to fly airplanes. They see his continuing use (second failed test) as extremely poor judgment.

Some things are off limits for pilots. Period. Pot is one.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

There’s a lot packed into one paragraph there, but I’ll focus here:

In addition, I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening. As long as there is enough time between the effects of both to be worn off prior to flying.

1) It doesn’t matter what you think. The FAA thinks differently. In your desire to validate your son, be careful you aren’t fostering in him an anti-authority attitude.

2) Saying MJ is no worse than binge drinking is setting the bar pretty low.

 

[Matthew]

He was not aware that he would be tested for anything besides ADHD meds after the psych testing. Had he known that, I am certain he would not have taken anything at all. In addition, I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening. As long as there is enough time between the effects of both to be worn off prior to flying. He doesn't plan to fly while impaired. Also his original application was submitted last year prior to the drug usage. Appreciate the feedback from those who were honestly trying to help.

The FAA medical specifically asks about the last 2 years of drug use. He can’t honestly “garden” on a weekend and fly.

 

[StraightnLevel]

I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening.

Either one is something that a pilot should not be doing, and both indicate judgement issues that simply are not part of the program.

This is not a matter of what you think of it. It is a matter of the law, and a matter of the mindset that is required to be a pilot in command of an aircraft. This is a conversation with the FAA that you cannot win.

Also his original application was submitted last year prior to the drug usage.

This seals it. What you are saying is that he knew he was applying for a pilot's medical certificate and still continued (or started) using prohibited drugs. There is absolutely no way to view this other than unacceptable.

How would you feel if you took a seat on a major carrier A320 or 777, and the captain came over the PA and said: "Hey all, we'll be taking off and heading to 38,000 feet, cruising at 480 knots for the next 12 hours. What's really great is that I smoked a bunch of pot and drank a couple of bottles of Jack Daniels last weekend to set me straight for this flight to Hong Kong!" Be honest.

Appreciate the feedback from those who were honestly trying to help.

All of the responses here are honestly trying to help.

If he gets past the initial medical at some point and does become a pilot, he needs to know that he can never drink or smoke pot again. Never. He will be under random testing for his entire career, and it won't go away. That's a life choice that must be made crystal clear, right now, with no wiggle room, and no chance for soft-pedaling or weasel-wording it. Never again - not once.

If he can't make that commitment to himself honestly and without reservation, he needs to find a different career goal.

 

[wellknow]

It’s really tragic the way our society has been duped into excessive marijuana use. better to legalize that and tax it then actually address the income disparity, homelessness, mental illness or the fact that only companies or individuals who can buy politicians can effect policy changes. attitude of the mom is typical. he’s just “gardening”.

 

[Racerx]

He was not aware that he would be tested for anything besides ADHD meds after the psych testing. Had he known that, I am certain he would not have taken anything at all. In addition, I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening. As long as there is enough time between the effects of both to be worn off prior to flying. He doesn't plan to fly while impaired. Also his original application was submitted last year prior to the drug usage. Appreciate the feedback from those who were honestly trying to help.

Problem is, alcohol is a known quantity. We can test for how drunk someone is. We know roughly how fast they'll sober up. And if you're ever been tested for alcohol for any reason, you better be below a certain level. Would he have taken the test drunk even if he thought he wouldn't be tested for alcohol? Of course not.

Marijuana, especially now with what we've done to increase potency it's pretty unknown as far as on a testing level. It's unknown how long you may be effected by it. We can't test for how stoned someone is or isnt. Just that they are/were.

Regardless of how you personally feel about it, you're playing the FAA's game. And if you or your son don't agree, he can find a different career. The laissez faire attitude toward marijuana and flying is unacceptable and the FAA has these rules written in blood.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

In addition, I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening.

You and I have very different opinions on responsible drinking.

Several? Not one? Not two? Not a few? Several? In one night? I do not consider that responsible behavior.

 

[Half Fast]

He was not aware that he would be tested for anything besides ADHD meds after the psych testing. Had he known that, I am certain he would not have taken anything at all. In addition, I personally don't see a big difference between "gardening" on an evening when you aren't flying as being much different than having several drinks on that same evening. As long as there is enough time between the effects of both to be worn off prior to flying. He doesn't plan to fly while impaired. Also his original application was submitted last year prior to the drug usage. Appreciate the feedback from those who were honestly trying to help.

Wait, I thought you said he was only using pot to treat COVID symptoms. Now you’re discussing recreational use.

Which is it? Did he even have COVID?

 

[Matthew]

Wait, I thought you said he was only using pot to treat COVID symptoms. Now you’re discussing recreational use.

Which is it? Did he even have COVID?

Now I’m thinking my first post was spot on.

 

[Mom of hopeful pilot]

Now I’m thinking my first post was spot on.

Not what I was saying. He had Covid before he took the psych exam. He doesn't take it recreationally.

 

[Mom of hopeful pilot]

I am trying to learn the rules of the FAA here, not justify anything. I had no idea a pilot could not have a couple of drinks on an evening when he/she isn't flying. I also am not trying to foster an anti-authority attitude in him. He doesn't even know I'm on here asking these questions. I appreciate those of you who were honestly trying to give me helpful info rather than bash me for not knowing how it all works.

 

[StraightnLevel]

Not what I was saying. He had Covid before he took the psych exam. He doesn't take it recreationally.

It doesn't matter why he took it. A prescription for a banned drug - legal or illegal - does not give you a pass on a FAA drug test. Taking ANY drug that is unacceptable to the FAA during your training period is going to result in a denial of the medical cert application when it shows up on the test. If the aspiring pilot can't stay sober through training and testing, the FAA will automatically take it irrefutable evidence that they have a substance abuse problem.

You will not win this argument.

 

[robin ardoin]

Not what I was saying. He had Covid before he took the psych exam. He doesn't take it recreationally.

Regardless, he has a long row to hoe. Just an ADHD Dx makes getting a medical an arduous process. Add in the mary jane and deception on the MedExpress questionnaire, the row got much longer. Still possible, but much harder.

 

[iamtheari]

I am trying to learn the rules of the FAA here, not justify anything. I had no idea a pilot could not have a couple of drinks on an evening when he/she isn't flying. I also am not trying to foster an anti-authority attitude in him. He doesn't even know I'm on here asking these questions. I appreciate those of you who were honestly trying to give me helpful info rather than bash me for not knowing how it all works.

Does your son actually want to be a professional pilot? His approach to the medical almost seems calculated to avoid any chance of having to fly a plane. He lied about marijuana use on the application. He failed a drug test, with the excuse that he thought it was okay to use a federally prohibited drug because he didn't know there was going to be a test, and then failed another drug test. (I know that marijuana is famous for showing positive long after it was used, but your post makes it sound like he used again between the two tests.) Is he basing important life decisions on the plot of Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle?

I don't intend to be flippant. At some point, your son (not his mother) needs to decide whether he wants to be a professional pilot or not. If he does, then every other decision he makes needs to be be based on that one. Not just whether to get high the day before a drug test, but whether to be in the same room with any form of marijuana ever again in his life. From all that we know about his decisions to date, your son has decided to actively avoid becoming a professional pilot. Hopefully you and he are able to get on the same page about his decision, as it will reduce stress for both of you.

 

[Matthew]

Not what I was saying. He had Covid before he took the psych exam. He doesn't take it recreationally.

OK - the attitude of "gardening", though, needs to reconsidered. FAA doesn't see it that way. He failed multiple tests, and yeah, like others have indicated, that stuff can remain detectable for a while so it's possible the 2nd test was simply to validate the first. So he's got that working against him. It's a long, uphill road for him. I hope he appreciates the effort you are putting in to getting yourself educated. Now it's his turn. If he does decide he wants to go through with this, he has to think two steps ahead for any decision he makes about drugs, alcohol, and mixing either with driving. He's going to get extra scrutiny from now on.

A buddy, about a year ago, was telling me about his adolescent son showing a heavy inclination towards flight training. I offered to have the "Come to Jesus" meeting with the kid, Not that he has any issues, but he's at the age where peer pressure is going to be really, really heavy to get involved in poor decisions. I suggested, "Listen, if this is what you really want, there are no short cuts and no cheating. Stay clean, and that might even mean getting new friends."

Sometimes having a goal like that makes it easier to say "no".