Allegiant Air has low fuel emergency... Or - did they?

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docmirror

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Cowboy - yeehah!
I never used bingo fuel even in the military. ATC wants to hear either minimum fuel or emergency fuel. Bingo is useless.
 
Yeah, I read that. It'll be interesting to see how that works out. He's not a GA pilot coming in, he's running for a scheduled carrier. Does a Blue Angel's practice session really take precedence over moving Americans efficiently through the airspace? For hours? I think not. You don't inconvenient a plane load of people to practice for an air show.
 
The controller said the pilot's company should have known this months in advance??? Air show NOTAMs are issued like a week in advance and in this case, the pilot was hoping to arrive before the NOTAM took effect anyway. This was a Thursday also. Just a practice day for the Blues. Not like it was the actual air show day.
 
Need to see all the facts,not sure I truly believe the pilots story on this one.
 
Henning said:
You don't inconvenient a plane load of people to practice for an air show.
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When the Blues practice here, they close down I-90 for an hour or so... on a bridge across Lake Washington. Seem to have no problem inconveniencing a few thousand people here....

Ron Wanttaja
 
RotorAndWing said:
I dunno, there's no way I'd work for what the EMS operators are paying PC-12 pilots.
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Meh, I do well, I could do better if I worked overseas, just isn't worth it to me though.

That's said, regionals just suck no matter who you are.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Flying a single engine plane for peanuts just sucks period.
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As opposed to a barbie jet for peanuts? Distinction without difference.

As to Allegiant, this doesn't surprise me. What people will put up with for flight time.....
 
RotorAndWing said:
Flying a single engine plane for peanuts just sucks period.
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I'm hardly working for peanuts lol, got the toys and house to prove it :D


Besides single engine, eight engine, I really could care less, it's all about QOL, also as cheesy as it sounds I actually do something positive for my community, there are folks here today because of the work my crew and I do, that accounts for something too.
 
Aair show waivers (including practices) are approved in conjunction with FAA Order 8900.1, under some basic rules and conditions. Among them is this one:

b) If a scheduled air carrier serves an airport that is the site of an aviation event, arrangements must be made for the arrival and departure of such aircraft. It is usually adequate to schedule a break in the activities to allow for scheduled arrivals and departures. The event organizer should complete prior coordination with the air carrier and ATC.


A phone call to the air boss with the ETA of the air carrier would have resolved the problem-- he'd have simply adapted the show schedule to accomodate the air carrier arrival. This was a non-problem that someone out of the loop turned into one.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Since they behave like one? :dunno:
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It's certainly run like one. However the pilots make quite a bit more, and they're not a contractor - they do their own flying.

I'm interested to see how this plays out. Either they got waaay lower on fuel than they ever should have been, which is a special kind of karmic justice given the CA, or they lied about their fuel state to save face, and that's a whole other thing altogether.

That's not even getting to the issue of the NOTAM being missed.
 
kayoh190 said:
It's certainly run like one. However the pilots make quite a bit more, and they're not a contractor - they do their own flying.

I'm interested to see how this plays out. Either they got waaay lower on fuel than they ever should have been, which is a special kind of karmic justice given the CA, or they lied about their fuel state to save face, and that's a whole other thing altogether.

That's not even getting to the issue of the NOTAM being missed.
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It will be VERY interesting, particularly if the rumors of who the Captain and FO were are at all true considering they would have most definitely had a role in the termination of the Captain that evacuated an aircraft at PIE due to smoke in the cabin.

:popcorn:
 
I can't out my buddy, but trust me here - it's not a rumor. It was them. Pass the popcorn!
 
So how much fuel DID they have? 3-4 minutes until the aircraft turned into a glider, 3-4 minutes until they went into the reserve or more than 3-4 minutes and the pilot just wanted to land?

PIC was responsible for knowing the practice was going on - regardless of whether it was published months or even just a week in advance, there was a NOTAM. Intentionally flying to a closed field with not enough fuel to divert is bad ju-ju. Yes, he was supposed to squeak in just before the closure, so when they were late departing, he should have known they would be late arriving.
 
The article says ATC advised them that a slot would open up in 20 minutes. If they lied about their fuel state to save 20 minutes of holding, then that's pathetic. If they really did cut their fuel margins so short that they couldn't safely hold for 20 minutes, then that's just scary.
 
MassPilot said:
The article says ATC advised them that a slot would open up in 20 minutes. If they lied about their fuel state to save 20 minutes of holding, then that's pathetic. If they really did cut their fuel margins so short that they couldn't safely hold for 20 minutes, then that's just scary.
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Carrying excess fuel when the weather to require it doesn't exist is not only expensive, it is hazardous. Not only is it more fuel into a crash, it is also less performance in an emergency.

Tankering fuel is not a good idea all around.
 
Henning said:
Carrying excess fuel when the weather to require it doesn't exist is not only expensive, it is hazardous. Not only is it more fuel into a crash, it is also less performance in an emergency.

Tankering fuel is not a good idea all around.
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I understand that but they claimed that they didn't even have enough fuel to safely hold for 20 minutes. If that's true, I would think that is cutting it pretty close.
 
MassPilot said:
I understand that but they claimed that they didn't even have enough fuel to safely hold for 20 minutes. If that's true, I would think that is cutting it pretty close.
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Especially if it's shown that they didn't have any other delays during their flight.
 
Since we don't have the actual comms used, we're not sure if the pilot actually declared an emergency either. Using 'bingo fuel in 3 to 4 minutes' is not really the same. Which makes me wonder if he carefully crafted the wording to avoid using the E word. Wish we had the transcript of the actual audio.
 
docmirror said:
Since we don't have the actual comms used, we're not sure if the pilot actually declared an emergency either. Using 'bingo fuel in 3 to 4 minutes' is not really the same. Which makes me wonder if he carefully crafted the wording to avoid using the E word. Wish we had the transcript of the actual audio.
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Here is the tower recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfar/KFAR-Twr-Jul-23-2015-1730Z.mp3

Starts around 12:41

After the initial exchange with Tower where he says he'll 'have to declare an emergency' if the company isn't able to work it out there isn't anything else. Some very faint transmissions that I can't make out - maybe bleed over from another freq? You don't hear from 426 again until around the 26 minute mark when he checks in on the visual for 18 and Tower clears him to land.

SO....either the recording is incomplete, or they went back to Center to declare and then were vectored back for the approach.
 
MassPilot said:
I understand that but they claimed that they didn't even have enough fuel to safely hold for 20 minutes. If that's true, I would think that is cutting it pretty close.
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Hold for 20 minutes on your 45 minute reserve after you had a long departure line (jets use a butt load of fuel just idling) out would not be something I would be prone to do.

I would be wondering why dispatch hadn't called ahead with the revised arrival time.

Now there seem to be some other office politics implications involved here that I'm not privy to, but it sure sounds like them being thrown under the bus is a definite possibility here.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Here is the tower recording:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfar/KFAR-Twr-Jul-23-2015-1730Z.mp3

Starts around 12:41

After the initial exchange with Tower where he says he'll 'have to declare an emergency' if the company isn't able to work it out there isn't anything else. Some very faint transmissions that I can't make out - maybe bleed over from another freq? You don't hear from 426 again until around the 26 minute mark when he checks in on the visual for 18 and Tower clears him to land.

SO....either the recording is incomplete, or they went back to Center to declare and then were vectored back for the approach.
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That was an interesting exchange. Sounds like he did in fact declare an emergency with center and then back to tower for landing.
 
I know nothing of airline ops and the planes, but is it possible he pushed the speed up to try and make the window and used more fuel than planned?
 
I think I know how I would reply to an investigation were I the pilot.

'I said there was an emergency, and in my capacity as the aircraft commander at that time, and in that situation my reasoning was that there was an emergency. If you want to discuss this further we can chat about the Gimli glider, or that MD out in Portland. Have a nice day'.
 
docmirror said:
I think I know how I would reply to an investigation were I the pilot.

'I said there was an emergency, and in my capacity as the aircraft commander at that time, and in that situation my reasoning was that there was an emergency. If you want to discuss this further we can chat about the Gimli glider, or that MD out in Portland. Have a nice day'.
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There is likely a bit more to this than meets the eye. This is routine, there are provisions written for it that would have made this all unnecessary, somehow the office wasn't coming through. Apparently this crew has a karmic issue within the company.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I know what the EMS 135 operators are paying PC12 pilots, and it ain't nothing to brag about.
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Mmmmk.

Poor folk problems: debating today if I want to BBQ and have a few beers waterfront at my house or take my 185 up to fly to a couple lakes and fish. Guess I probably should start a "go fund me" page lol

I should make more money, spose if I was smart Id fly in some communist or middle eastern country, being a bus driver in the sky, but.... I'm not a fan of knowing if I were to do something like, say yell "free Tibet" there is a chance I'll be shot, not really what I call QOL. YMMV
 
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James331 said:
Mmmmk.

Poor folk problems: debating today if I want to BBQ and have a few beers waterfront at my house or take my 185 up to fly to a couple lakes and fish. Guess I probably should start a "go fund me" page lol

I should make more money, spose if I was smart Id fly in some communist or middle eastern country, being a bus driver in the sky, boy that sounds like a great QOL :rolleyes2:
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I've got several really good offers, in Dubai. No thanks, I hate the desert.
 
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