High Performance and Complex Rating

Chrisgoesflying

Chrisgoesflying

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Chrisgoesflying
I can probably look this up but thought I'd post my question here for discussion purposes. I have a Canadian PPL and an FAA PPL. With the Canadian PPL, I don't need an endorsement to fly a complex airplanes. The Canadian definition of a "high performance aircraft" is also different than the FAA definition so I don't need an endorsement for most of the planes the FAA would consider high performance. In fact, I own and fly a Piper Comanche 250, which, if I'm not mistaken, would require having a high performance and complex endorsement in the States. So, as long as I fly my C-registered plane with my Transport Canada license in Canada or the U.S. all is fine. However, since I'm planning on spending more time in the U.S. at some point, I may want to import my Canadian plane or rent N-registered planes from time to time. At that point, I would need the two above mentioned endorsements. So, my questions are:

- How do I get these endorsements? Is it simply finding a U.S. CFI to check me out (maybe even on my Canadian plane) or is an examiner needed?
- Could I simply have my Canadian CFI endorse my logbook saying I'm endorsed for HP and Complex for my FAA PPL?
- Is there some sort of formal training, ground school, etc. one has to pass for these endorsements? I have 85 hours HP and Complex already, 81 of which are PIC.
 
CFI can endorse, no need for examiner.
Don't know about Canadian CFI endorsement. Common sense says yes, but . . .
No formal training. With your experience, probably just a short flight with a CFI.
 
See 14 CFR 61.31
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane, unless the person has—

(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and

(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if—

(i) The person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997; or

(ii) The person has received ground and flight training under an approved training program and has satisfactorily completed a competency check under § 135.293 of this chapter in a complex airplane, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane which must be documented in the pilot's logbook or training record.

(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has—

(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and

(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.
Click to expand...

So, authorized instructor (FAA CFI) provides ground and flight training, then signs off on HP/Complex endorsements for your FAA license.
 
I had to dig around in my logbooks, but the my CFI for complex hand-wrote: "I certify that asicer, private pilot ####### has received the required training of 61.31e in a Mooney M20F. I have determined that he/she is proficient in the operation + systems of a complex airplane." It happened after 4 flights in the Mooney, but I think it was that long for insurance purposes.

Digging around a bit more, my CFI for HP hand-wrote the same thing except that it's 61.31f instead of 61.31e, Cessna 182 instead Mooney and high performance instead of complex. Looks like that was after 2 flights.
 
There's also no minimum hour requirement. My hp endorsement included a club checkout in a piper dakota, and still only took an hour. I would guess that if you explained the situation to a cfi, and showed them the number of hours you have in the comanche, they'd take a ride around the pattern with you and sign you off.
 
Anywhere you rent from in the States will want a checkout. Part of that checkout will include the appropriate endorsements as necessary to act as PIC in that airplane. I am curious to hear what the others say about transferring the Canadian sign offs over into the US.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
- How do I get these endorsements? Is it simply finding a U.S. CFI to check me out (maybe even on my Canadian plane) or is an examiner needed?
Click to expand...
In the US, they are not “ratings” requiring an examiner but section 61.31 “endorsements” requiring only a logbook entry by a CFI.
Chrisgoesflying said:
- Could I simply have my Canadian CFI endorse my logbook saying I'm endorsed for HP and Complex for my FAA PPL?
Click to expand...
No. US endorsements require an “authorized instructor,” in this case a US CFI. I guess the point can be argued, but I think the better reading of 61.41 is that it applies to signing off endorsements as well as checkrides. Training given by your Canadian CFI counts, but not the ultimate sign-off.
Chrisgoesflying said:
- Is there some sort of formal training, ground school, etc. one has to pass for these endorsements? I have 85 hours HP and Complex already, 81 of which are PIC.
Click to expand...
No. there’s some non-regulatory guidance of what training for the endorsement “should” entail, but from a regulatory standpoint, there’s no minimum time requirement and I think most CFIs would be happy to provide the endorsements to an experienced HP/complex endorsement based on a single flight. I would not hesitate doing it.

OTOH, how long have you been flying that Comanche? If you have been flying complex and HP aircraft since before August 4, 1997, the US regulations don’t require the endorsements.

And, as already mentioned, for rentals, a FBO’s checkout requirements may be more extensive and they may want the endorsements whether or not technically required.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
I can probably look this up but thought I'd post my question here for discussion purposes. I have a Canadian PPL and an FAA PPL. With the Canadian PPL, I don't need an endorsement to fly a complex airplanes. The Canadian definition of a "high performance aircraft" is also different than the FAA definition so I don't need an endorsement for most of the planes the FAA would consider high performance. In fact, I own and fly a Piper Comanche 250, which, if I'm not mistaken, would require having a high performance and complex endorsement in the States. So, as long as I fly my C-registered plane with my Transport Canada license in Canada or the U.S. all is fine. However, since I'm planning on spending more time in the U.S. at some point, I may want to import my Canadian plane or rent N-registered planes from time to time. At that point, I would need the two above mentioned endorsements. So, my questions are:

- How do I get these endorsements? Is it simply finding a U.S. CFI to check me out (maybe even on my Canadian plane) or is an examiner needed?
- Could I simply have my Canadian CFI endorse my logbook saying I'm endorsed for HP and Complex for my FAA PPL?
- Is there some sort of formal training, ground school, etc. one has to pass for these endorsements? I have 85 hours HP and Complex already, 81 of which are PIC.
Click to expand...
as you already fly a high performance complex plane, you'll probably only need a single flight with a US flight instructor to get the endorsements. super simple
 
Jim K said:
There's also no minimum hour requirement. My hp endorsement included a club checkout in a piper dakota, and still only took an hour. I would guess that if you explained the situation to a cfi, and showed them the number of hours you have in the comanche, they'd take a ride around the pattern with you and sign you off.
Click to expand...
I asked my CFI the other day, and he said a couple of hours max for a complex cert.
 
midlifeflyer said:
OTOH, how long have you been flying that Comanche? If you have been flying complex and HP aircraft since before August 4, 1997, the US regulations don’t require the endorsements.
Click to expand...

In 1997, i was still too short to even reach the rudder pedals of Cessna 150 so that rule wouldn’t apply to me ;-)

Thanks for all the responses. So, seems like i’ll just have to get a quick flight with a CFI and show him/her i am proficient in the Comanche to get the sign off. I assume I could do that in my own Comanche even though it is registered in Canada, but the CFI has to be FAA certified. None of it would be required if i simply keep flying the plane on the Canadian registry.

Follow up question: Could i train with my Canadian Comanche towards IR and commercial in the US with a US CFI and then take my check ride in the Canadian Comanche in the US? I would be in legal status from an USCIS standpoint obviously and i already have that flight training security clearance one needs as a non-citizen.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
i already have that flight training security clearance one needs as a non-citizen.
Click to expand...

Your plan is basically correct, but my understanding is that the TSA approval is paired to the flight instruction provider. i.e., before you can receive instruction in the US, they'll have to do the TSA dance. It may be very expedient, but they can't skip it just because you've done it somewhere else.
 
Clip4 said:
The requirements for determining citizenship status for any student, whether U.S. or non-U.S. citizen and non-U.S. national, applies only to flight training towards an initial pilot certificate, including a recreational pilot, sport pilot, or private pilot certificate; instrument rating; or multiengine rating.
Click to expand...

And since the OP specified instrument rating, it sounds like we are in agreement.
 
bentmettle said:
Your plan is basically correct, but my understanding is that the TSA approval is paired to the flight instruction provider. i.e., before you can receive instruction in the US, they'll have to do the TSA dance. It may be very expedient, but they can't skip it just because you've done it somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I thought it’s a once off thing and since i did it for my ppl, i’m good. What would be considered training towards an IR? I have a ppl but even here in Canada, i usually go up with a cfi every so often to do some under the hood work to keep that sharp in case i get caught in an iffy situation. i’m not really training towards an ifr rating but i obviously log dual ifr simulated which would count towards my ifr. would i not be allowed to do even that every now and then without getting a tsa clearance?
 
Why not just get the IFR rating? It sounds like you fly enough to justify its use and then you won’t be so on edge about getting into a sticky situation.
 
RyanB said:
Why not just get the IFR rating? It sounds like you fly enough to justify its use and then you won’t be so on edge about getting into a sticky situation.
Click to expand...

My plane will need a lot of $$$ to be useful for actual IFR. The plan is to upgrade the plane over the next few years and then get the IR in my plane.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
In 1997, i was still too short to even reach the rudder pedals of Cessna 150 so that rule wouldn’t apply to me ;-)

Thanks for all the responses. So, seems like i’ll just have to get a quick flight with a CFI and show him/her i am proficient in the Comanche to get the sign off. I assume I could do that in my own Comanche even though it is registered in Canada, but the CFI has to be FAA certified. None of it would be required if i simply keep flying the plane on the Canadian registry.

Follow up question: Could i train with my Canadian Comanche towards IR and commercial in the US with a US CFI and then take my check ride in the Canadian Comanche in the US? I would be in legal status from an USCIS standpoint obviously and i already have that flight training security clearance one needs as a non-citizen.
Click to expand...
Train in your plane, the FAA CFII can give you the HP and complex endorsement during the training.
Train IFR with your plane with what you have and rent to get experience with other avionics and/or checkride if needed. It may shape what you really want and need in your own plane down the line.
 
My experience getting the HP/Complex endorsement was an unfortunate expensive time. My prior flight time was 100% in an Archer II. The flight school had a PA-32-301 Saratoga on the rental line. HP, but not complex. So I got my Complex endorsement in that plane. Insurance required 10 hours with a CFI. No sooner did I get the endorsement, another new plane on the rental line. Yep, a PA-32-301R.

Nothing to be done. Another 10 hours required to learn how (and when) to raise and lower the gear.

I will say that after a total of 20 hours dual, I could fly the PA-32 pretty well!

-Skip
 
EdFred said:
Come on over to MI, we can do the endorsement n either your 250 or my 250. Better yet, make it to 6Y9 for the (US) Labor Day weekend fly in. We'll get you some short grass strip training as well.
Click to expand...

But if I get training when I get there, how do I get there in the first place without prior training? 2,600 is a tad too short for me to fly into. However, a trip to a nice, paved, 3,500+ long runway in Michigan, I'd be in! Haven't been to Mackinac Island in 20 years - maybe this summer?
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I flew in there in the winter, probably 1974, the only time I claimed renting a team of horses on my expense report ($49.00). The island is free of automobiles, but in winter it is overrun with snowmobiles.
Click to expand...

I was there last in 2004 as a kid. Have fond memories of the place, especially of all the fudge i got to eat that weekend lol.
 
I don't know what part of Canada you are in but if Idaho is closer to you, I can help you knock it out as well; bring the Comanche on down!
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
But if I get training when I get there, how do I get there in the first place without prior training? 2,600 is a tad too short for me to fly into. However, a trip to a nice, paved, 3,500+ long runway in Michigan, I'd be in! Haven't been to Mackinac Island in 20 years - maybe this summer?
Click to expand...
I got 5000' paved at the home drome near GRR with a couple really nice grass runways that are shorter on the field as well.

Keep in mind, grass here doesnt mean littered with gravel as well.
 
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